Interview Text with Robert Ransick by Diana Kamin and Glenn Wharton on 8-30-2016

David Wojnarowicz Knowledge Base
Interview with Robert Ransick
By Diana Kamin & Glenn Wharton
August 30, 2016

DK: This is Diana Kamin and Glenn Wharton interviewing Robert Ransick at NYU on August 30th, 2016. So, you were saying you were going to tell us about your interaction with David. My first question was going to be, how did you first learn about his work and where did you encounter it?
RR: So it was certainly through PPOW. I was at the School of Visual Arts finishing my degree and I was working for an artist, Lorraine O’Grady, who would take me to galleries. And through that, I think the first installation I saw, which was an anonymous installation that he did with Paul Marcus and a few other people at PPOW, it was on Broadway in Soho. I think, I don’t know if they called it the Lazarus Ship. It’s easily found out.
DK: The Lazaretto?
RR: The Lazaretto. So that was my – I should have done my own archival research before getting here. So I saw that piece, and that piece was just bone chilling. It was just such an experience. I don’t think I had ever seen a gallery transformed quite that extensively. You entered the space. It was like black garbage bags that were lining the walls, with writing and all kinds of things. And then you entered into a room, what looked to be like what we would call a tenement room. And there was a presence, a person who was obviously not real, skeletal, in very bad shape, and then lots of medication and different things all over the place. So you went through the installation and that ended up with the ship, a space that was like a ship, and then there were all of these sculpture arms coming out from all of the walls. And through the entire installation you could hear Louis Armstrong’s It’s a Wonderful World. And just this haunting – every time I hear that song, I can never divorce it from that installation. I didn’t know, I don’t think I knew David’s work so consciously at that point. But that was just resonant.
DK: And so this would have been before you were working at PPOW?
RR: That was before I worked at the gallery. And so eventually, I ended up working for Lorraine, who I then met Gracie Mansion through Kathy Goncharov. All of these people connect. Kathy Goncharov was a curator at the New School’s collection. Kathy connected me to Gracie and Fred Wilson. And so I did some work for Fred when he did a show at Gracie’s. Gracie was the floor above PPOW, and I met Wendy and Penny, and they needed a preparator, so I ended up working there. And that was, from what I can piece together, that was 1991. So it probably was winter or spring, 1991. So it was the year before David’s death. And so, the gallery, because I was a preparator, I was the one that got to see everybody’s work very intimately, not only doing installations but I was in charge of the storage in the back room. And Wendy was also very generous. We would often have conversations about the artists, we’d have conversations about work. We would talk about, well what are we going to put up in the Projects space when a new show came up. And I had taken a real deep interest in David’s work that just continued to evolve. Many works that are now at like MoMA and stuff, I would pull them out and I would just sit and look at them. So it was this incredible time that I don’t even think I realized how amazing that was to be able to do. So. I don’t know if you want me to keep going on the whole story, or?
DK: Sure, yeah, go ahead.
RR: So I was working at the gallery, very interested in David along with other artists that were there. And of course everyone was very concerned about David’s health. He had works that he wanted to complete. He had more photo works that he wanted to complete. That included the large black-and-whites with the red silkscreen text, or screen text, over it, When I Lay My Hands on You [Global query: When I Put My Hands on Your Body?] and then Spiral, which was the last work he produced. There were others. And so, I think there’s multiple reasons; I mean, Penny and Wendy just wanted to help him. And I had done a photo degree at SVA. I was young, gay, cuter than I am now, [laughing] and I thought they thought well maybe if David would feel comfortable, because he was very private, that I could help him. And it’s funny, I didn’t remember until actually riding on the train, though they had begun talking to David about this, and David at that point was rarely coming into the gallery, although did come in to do some signing or something, and we met. And then, I don’t know how it happened but obviously Penny or Wendy said, ‘Robert will help you, anything you need. If you want to get back into the darkroom, maybe he can do some prints; whatever.’ And I do remember David actually called me on my home phone. And I’m sure you’ve listened to David’s voice in recordings, and it’s a very powerful voice. And I think I still have the tape somewhere.
DK: Oh, wow.
RR: But I recently moved and I don’t know where exactly. But it’s like, ‘Robert, this is David Wojnarowicz,’ and it’s an incredibly deep voice. So that was an amazing, for me, again, resonant. I don’t remember, I’m pretty sure Close to the Knives came out, and I of course read it. And I on some level, in retrospect, have wished I hadn’t read it before I started having more interactions with him, because it was such a weight. Because that is a heady book for anyone to read, and reading it when I was like 23 years old, and as a kid who grew up with AIDS always in my landscape as an adult, it was just so intimidating. So the process happened that Penny and Wendy then started using me to deliver to David. And I don’t know what all they’ve said about my role, and I don’t think it’s even in public record, but I was basically couriering cash to David every week or every other week, so that he could pay for his service providers. So I would walk from the corner of Spring Street and Broadway with like a pocketful of $5,000 of cash to the East Village to David’s place above the theater. And then we would almost always sit and talk. Like, he only would have visitors if I think he was feeling semi-okay. Although he certainly would talk about – although he never made it an issue, I could tell when he was tired. Another thing I was thinking of as I was coming here, I don’t ever remember, except for once, anyone else being there. Which was also surprising to me because I know that there were many friends and people helping caretake. I know on one occasion definitely there were some other folks there, but for the most part, I would just come, and it would – I wish I had brought my camera. I mean, there are so many things I wish I had done. But we would sit there, and at the time I also smoked, and David loved to smoke, I think.
DK: Yes.
RR: And I remember, I mean, I’m sure there are photographs of the loft, it was a classic kind of artist’s space as I imagined New York artists to have. Reminiscent of the old Soho lofts, but this was so unusual because it was integrated into this theater building. So it was very strange. And then the arced windows. But, you know, it was semi-disheveled. He had a bed, certainly, by the window, but where I encountered him most was at the kitchen table, which was in the corner in the little kitchen with the windows looking out over the avenue. And we would sit and smoke for a little while. So we’d just sort of hang out, and he would ask what I was doing. And again, it just like, talking to him I felt so intimidated, but he was really at ease and very, very generous. I had no idea, one, how close to death he was. And our whole hope was that, because there were moments that I think he was rebounding or getting stronger, and then it would just be like this kind of thing through the time that I was working at PPOW. So it was never a, ‘This is over.’ It was always a, ‘When will you be well enough,’ and ‘When will you want to go back in the darkroom?’ I know there was a darkroom in the back part of the space. I have a little memory of just him maybe opening the door, but he certainly was not in any condition to make anything, at least in the darkroom. And so sadly, we never actually did anything physical there. Certainly at the time I also had become friends with Gary Schneider and John, who were doing his large prints, and I was helping bring proofs and things like that to the loft. And then we would just sit at the table. But again, not long in-depth dialogues about the work. He didn’t, and I never asked; he wasn’t really talking about process or what he was working on. It was very much, like I was kind of like just this weird alien that would arrive, and I think it was just sort of this reprieve from what he was dealing with, which was just insanity, you know, like being so, so sick. But he never did that – he was much more interested in me. So I think in the spirit of David, it probably, that’s the resonance of this unknown young person who was an artist, trying to become an artist, and his interest in that and what I was doing. So it was very much more about me than it ever was about him. He would get the cash and then he would want to know what I’m doing. There were a couple of moments that were sort of funny. This was also the time when U-2 got interested in David. And I remember, it was a Sunday, they went to the gallery and the gallery opened for Bono and the crew to come in and look at David’s work, which I know they ended up buying a number of pieces, and then they used the buffaloes on the cover of the one CD. And I remember he was just, he was so funny because they wanted him to come to their concert. And he was very sick at the time, but he went. And so he was telling me the story, and he’s like, ‘Yeah, Bono wanted me to go down and pray with the band before the concert.’ [laughter] And I’m like [silence]. And he’s like, ‘Of course I didn’t go pray with Bono and the band before the concert! I would never!’ [laughter] And of course he would never. [laughing] He hated the Catholic Church. He didn’t want anything to do with the religion of Catholicism. So no, he did not go. That must have been later because I think the concert was in Jersey at the Meadowlands, and they had another show at Yankee Stadium, and I did go. And by that time David was dead. And I remember his name going across the screen and it had the death date, and it was like the birth date and the death date, it was just like, just really intense. But I think David, and now I’m adding my own point of view, but I think David definitely liked the attention. There was a thrill about it. And he certainly wanted, I think to, by any means necessary, get his ideas into the world, as representative of the many different things he did. And so I think he kind of, he loved it, even though he was subversive about it.
DK: Yeah.
RR: And I think, and I can’t remember, I was trying to find information, but I think Boy George did something with his work at that time, too. It might be interesting to look. Because he thought that was hilarious, too. And he actually, I can remember him with somebody who was there, it was either a friend or an attendant or something, and they opened up some album cover or something to show me, because he thought it was really funny. And these happened very close to each other. So it was like this interesting irony that popular culture suddenly was using his images and were interested in him as representative of the AIDS struggle. And I think he got a very big kick out of it because it was the most animated and funny I witnessed him through the, I don’t know, ten months, year, that I was at all interacting with him.
DK: So maybe just to set the scene a little more, was there clutter on the kitchen table? Was it a spare kitchen table? The space where you guys would spend time at.
RR: I remember it being white, kind of old school, like a ‘50s kind of table. I think there were teacups there, and also it was sort of open shelves, so you could kind of see everything. It was clear somebody was – I mean, the place was classic artist’s loft, although probably when there was no one coming in to help him it was much more disheveled or messy. So it felt neat-ish, but not necessarily how it would have been? I don’t know. Because it was such an artificial time because people I know were – he had so many loving friends who would go. So my guess is that they would keep everything pretty clean. So yes, there was stuff on the table, newspapers, as I recall, things like reading materials and teacups. I remember teacups. And I might have that wrong, but that’s kind of how I imagine it. And an ashtray, for sure, with lots of cigarettes.
DK: Any sort of unusual items around the apartment? Some people have talked about the skeleton of a baby elephant.
RR: [laughs] The skeleton of a baby elephant, I kind of rem -- Honestly, my visuals of the apartment, like, I can see the arcing windows, and I know the door was like here, and then the kitchen was over here, so I would have to go across this big – I can’t remember exactly where the bed was placed, because as I recall, it moved. So I guess as he got sicker, they would shift it. I wish I had spent more time examining the things. Again, it was like I was very self-conscious. So everything is sort of clouded with the glowing person of, like, admiration versus ‘Oh, what an interesting sculpture you have there.’ I think the globe was there, the black globe that he had made a piece, a sculpture out of. And also, because I spent right before that time working with Fred Wilson whose loft I spent a lot of time in, I’ve kind of merged the two a little bit. And so I don’t remember a lot of details. There was definitely a lot of stuff in the space, but not that I __.
DK: Your sense is he wasn’t working at that time.
RR: Well, David’s working took on many forms. My guess is he was writing. I’m certain he was conceiving. I know that there were more photos, I believe, in the __[17:15] series that included Spiral and When I Lay My Hands on You [sic], that were never completed.
DK: Yeah, I’ve seen two accounts, one is that he had planned five, and one is that he had planned three.
RR: Penny or Wendy would be a better judge, or Gary and John certainly knew. If there was anything that was on its way to going, they would know. Because he, I think, talked to them a lot about stuff, and they would have done anything for him. So.
DK: And the times when you would bring over proofs, you said there wasn’t really a lot of discussion; he would just sort of sign off on them? Or were there ever times __
RR: I remember once, and I think it actually was for Spiral. I brought it and I remember opening it, but he wasn’t feeling well. So I didn’t get an answer, I didn’t get anything. It was just like, ‘I’ll let Penny and Wendy know.’ So again, unfortunately there wasn’t much dialogue. So, in that time, he wasn’t well. I think he thought he probably could. There was somebody there at that point, and they were just, like, ‘Just leave it and he’ll look at it later.’ Unfortunately, I have no real insights into that.
DK: That’s all right. It’s great to hear this other sort of, especially from this time in his life and meeting someone new. So what kinds of questions would he ask you about your work or your life?
RR: Basic, like, ‘What are you making?’ He asked me where I was from, and being from the Midwest, again, I can’t recall all of the particulars, but he was interested in that. I think he was interested in anybody who kind of grew up in a place that wasn’t necessarily hospitable to if you were gay or different or anything of that nature. Knowing his love of the Southwest, I wish I knew him now, because I’ve spent twenty years going out. But the questions were really, they were just simple. I think again, at this point in his life, there wasn’t necessarily a lot of energy for plowing deeply in with somebody new. I think he was just, he was trying to become familiar. It was funny because part of it was me helping him feel comfortable with me, so that I could potentially help him with any work that he wanted to do. And in fact, like I said earlier, the reverse. He was on some level helping me feel comfortable. So it was just small talk. There wasn’t a whole lot of other stuff, except for when he would retell these other stories that he just thought were funny.
DK: That were sort of contemporary stories.
RR: Yes. Of the moment. He never went into
DK: His past.
RR: I mean, again, it’s like, knowing everything I know now, and of course, I met so many of the people at that time, but I had no idea really the histories, other than having read Close to the Knives which again, was just sort of like a bit of a weight. Like, what could I ask him? Maybe now, with a different kind of confidence, I would have asked him about parts of that book or why he did what he did. But it was like, it just didn’t feel right.
DK: That makes sense. So Wendy had recalled, but maybe the timeline was shifted for her, she was remembering getting wood cut for painting work and having that delivered to his loft.
RR: It could have been. Though I know, the only work that I remember installing as a show were the four Flower paintings. So it’s very likely that I may have helped get the wood together, because I would do that at the gallery. I built shelves and all of that kind of stuff. So I don’t remember delivering the wood. I do remember the Flower paintings. And I remember hearing, and it might have been from Gary or John, that David was never happy with those paintings. He felt like he didn’t paint them well enough, and he was very critical of them. And I just remember just being stunned by them because they were – you know, again, his imagery is such a collision of ideas. And then just the penetrating the boards, and cutting things out, and stitching other things in, and text. But I don’t remember bringing the wood. It’s entirely possible.
DK: I think, because those Flower paintings were done in 1990, so.
RR: See, I couldn’t remember; I don’t think I had started in 1990. I think I had started in ’91. Because Lorraine and I worked for a year on a show that opened in January. Very shortly after that is when I started at PPOW. So my guess is that the predecessor to me might have done that, because I don’t remember bringing wood.
DK: Or ever bringing work from his studio apartment to the gallery?
RR: We were doing, I remember the production of the photographs, and also the boy, One Day This Boy Will Grow Up [sic; global]. And I remember that. I could have brought those. What would have happened is, bringing them for signing, or something like that. And it’s entirely possible. I do remember a conversation with John, or no, it was Gary, because the prints had been made and they weren’t mounted yet. And we were trying to figure out where to get them mounted. And I remember talking to Gary because I was very concerned that the materials be archival, so that they would last. And of course Gary shared that. But Gary didn’t have mounting facilities at that time. So I don’t remember where we did it, but it’s very likely that I might have gone there for him to give his signature. If there were other things, I don’t think so. Because at that point, he was producing things that were, I mean, the Boy print is about this big. So that could have very easily been brought. The large photographs, I probably would have brought maybe in a car. And the proof was just to make sure that the screening of the red, When I Lay My Hands on You, or Spiral, I think I brought the proof which was the test of the text transfer.
DK: Oh, okay. I figured it was the photographic __
RR: That was a photograph. Sorry, I’m confusing the two things. So the When I Lay my Hands on You is photographic, and I do remember, I think it was the proof; right?
DK: With the text laid on top?
RR: With the red text over it. For him to see it. That is the time that I think he was too sick. I do have a memory of the One Day This Boy Will Grow Up, that being produced when I was at the gallery, because of the mounting issue. First it was like, ‘Oh, you can just get it mounted anywhere.’ And I’m like, ‘It can’t be mounted anywhere; it has to be archival material.’ I might have brought those to the loft to get him to sign them. They’re kind of completed, __
DK: I only asked because I had been wondering where the silk-screening was done.
RR: Gary, I think, would know, because I know that they did the hand-off. I’m assuming you’ve talked to Gary and John.
DK: Yes. We talked to Gary.
RR: Gary had a long relationship. They knew, and I often wondered myself because there were other artists who wanted to do things that I worked with, and I never ultimately had the answer. Did Wendy not know?
DK: __ it was coming through Gary __.
RR: Well, what would have happened, and this is again my recollection, because Gary did all the printing, so they would have gone from Gary to the silk-screener or screen printer, whoever is doing it, and then I may have gone and got them, or got them at Gary’s. I just don’t remember.
DK: That’s fine. Wendy didn’t remember.
RR: It would be good to find out – my guess is Gary remembers. But I’m not positive.
DK: ?
RR: I don’t remember, like, at that time, I can’t remember if I, I mean, I knew of Tom and then subsequently met Tom a lot more. And then after David passed away, Tom would come to the gallery a lot. And I really liked Tom and he was always very kind and generous and what have you. And over the years I’ve asked for other things because I did a piece that David was involved in, and he was very helpful in getting stuff together.
GW: How long did you work for the gallery after his death?
RR: You know, I was trying to remember that. What month did David die?
DK: I should remember off the top of my head, but. I want to say June, so let’s see if that’s right.
RR: So June of ’92?
DK: ’92.
RR: Right. Okay.
DK: July of ’92.
RR: Okay. So I remember the day because I went to a bar in the East Village and was very upset. But so, I must have stayed on at the gallery for probably maybe another six months or so. So my guess is, I probably started at the gallery the year before. And if I went back and looked up PPOW’s archive, I could tell you exactly whose shows I installed and when, and that would definitely date it. But I was definitely there for a while after, at least six months, maybe longer, but I don’t remember. That’s easy information I could figure it out.
GW: Were there any shows of his work after his death?
RR: We did the Flowers. And I can’t remember if it was a solo show. I can see the gallery, but again, I erased everything else, so I don’t know. But the Four Flowers were definitely exhibited. I don’t know that it was the only time they were shown, especially if they were done in ’91 or ‘90.
DK: I believe they were shown in the PPOW show In the Garden, that he would have been involved in the installation for.
RR: Okay, so then that predates me.
DK: Right. So that would have been the year before. But I was just thinking or wondering if you guys were sort of consulting or thinking about that previous show when you were reinstalling the Flower paintings.
RR: Not that I know of.
DK: I guess it was in a different context.
RR: I mean, Wendy probably was thinking about it. It may have even been in the Project room. It might have been solo in the Project room. But I don’t remember talking about it. I mean, I would ask Wendy – Wendy and I were pretty close. Penny was great too, but Wendy was very interested in my thoughts about stuff, so I would ask her questions about David and the work. But I don’t remember any dialogue about “In the Garden.”
DK: Mm-hm. Or dialogue about any of Wojnarowicz’s preferences for hanging or display? __
RR: No. I mean, I think everything that we installed, and any time I’ve seen things installed, I don’t think, other than the large installations, so, the Lazaretto, David’s approach was pretty traditional. He didn’t do crazy kind of salon. It was 60 on center, and that’s what it’s going to be. By the way, did you find Stefan Petrik, his framer?
DK: I have his information; yeah.
RR: Because he might actually have some very interesting stories. Because he really designed several of David’s signature frames. And I certainly was always going there, on Prince Street, to Stefan’s studio, to pick up work drop work off. And/or get things repaired, because he’s the one that did the kind of reveal black frame with the blue around it, or the red. There’s only a few that were red. The Sex series I think had the red, but most of the others had the blue. But in terms of installation, I think it was very straightforward. But I sadly was ever there with David in the galleries laying out a show or something like that. Which would have been terrific.
DK: It sounds like it came together pretty quickly, because he would arrive a couple of hours before the show was meant to open. [laughing] That’s what Wendy said.
RR: Oh, I’m sorry I can’t give you insights into that. [laughter] That’s a shame, although that would have been perfect. I would have been fine with that, because I could get them real quick. Oh, no, no; I’m sorry I’m not the one that was there for that.
DK: I think Wendy thought that you were.
RR: Yeah, oh, that’s a shame. Nope.
DK: Well I’d love to hear more about the sort of conversations, then, if there’s other – there’s a couple of stories about the __
RR: I mean, it’s like, what do you want to go on record? It’s like, I do remember David, because they must have been trying to do a show, because another conversation that sticks out quite clearly is, he was complaining that Penny, on the last show; it must have been “In the Garden,” I guess, they wouldn’t do a catalogue. And he wanted a catalogue. And he really was not happy. And I think, I’ve already made it clear that Penny and Wendy were also supporting him. And I’m sure no one knows that they were couriering cash, a lot, over, every couple of weeks, or whatever it was. But he was very upset about that, and I think part of it was he knew that the work lived in many ways in that kind of space. Right? That the objects are the objects which enable the ideas to get into the world, but the real kind of exposure would come through publication and catalogues and that. So he was upset with that. I actually think I told Penny this and she just laughed or whatever, like, ‘Oh David,’ you know. So PPOW was, I mean, it was probably for me a great experience in terms of understanding galleries, because they were really pretty good to their artists. And they had many people like David who were doing very innovative, not necessarily saleable, kinds of work. So they, I guess, had to pick and choose what they could do. And I don’t know, because I was never on the sales side of things, we certainly had a lot of work. I regret to this day not having been able to buy some of the work. I did buy one piece, which they let me pay off over time, but.
DK: What piece did you buy?
RR: The mummy, a little Mexican mummy film still. It was the only thing I could afford. But it’s great and I’m very happy to have it. But he was upset about the catalogue. But again, my memories of more details or, I don’t think there was a lot, other than just sort of: How are you doing? Do you want to sit and have a cigarette with me? And so it was these kind of interstitial moments in his day of probably not feeling well, getting medication, having nurses come in, and stuff like that. So there weren’t necessarily profound moments, but they were just personally really pretty amazing.
GW: The reason why we’re digging deep on his concerns for exhibition, the catalogue reference section __[34:34] because we’re trying to help imagine people in the future who will be making decisions about catalogues, about exhibition layout. So his concerns could be very helpful to them. So what you’ve said is actually very interesting.
RR: Good. He was mad that he didn’t have a catalogue from that show, and he made it clear. But again, the decisions about why it did or didn’t happen, I have no idea. But he would have liked it to happen. And there was definitely, I think, there’s an ego there and he wants his work to be seen, and he wants people to understand something differently than what the world was telling them about AIDS and the death of so many of his friends.
DK: Do you think he was thinking about his legacy at that point?
RR: I think David was probably always thinking about his legacy. I think that more in retrospect than I understood at the time. But if you look at how David made work and then who he engaged and what have you, it was clear he wanted to have an impact. I don’t think, like the gallery thing, I think he probably was more comfortable when Gracie and originally Sur Rodney Sur were involved with his work. But when Gracie closed, that’s when the estate and David, well David when he was still alive moved to PPOW. And I think it was a good place for him to land, and I certainly think Penny and Wendy tried really hard. But I think David had a love-hate relationship with the whole commercial aspect of the art world. So the catalogue thing was sort of like a needling about galleries in general, even though I think he also knew that he had pretty much been done right by them, what have you. It was never personal. It was just like, too tight, or stuff like that, just, like, you know, didn’t want to do it. But I also don’t think David was, like, selling, like he is now, so I guess, probably a shrewd business decision.
DK: Is there anything else that sort of sticks out about that period? It sounds like it was a brief and intense period for you, how it sort of affected you , moving forward; anything he said to you that stuck with you about the art?
RR: I mean, I think encountering David personally then getting to know his work so well and then reading his work so extensively has had an immeasurable effect. The intersection of content and politics with the creative life is very much where I live. So, absolutely. Just knowing David and seeing that work was like permission. So, yes, there were no single, I mean, there are lines from his writing that I quote frequently. I don’t think there’s anything more profound even at this moment than, “Soon this will all be picturesque ruins,” than that line from David’s text. And it is so resonant and it creeps into my thinking when I’m traveling and I’m in antiquity sites, to a city like this. Because soon this will be all picturesque ruins. Sadly, those weren’t in dialogue. I wasn’t his friend. I didn’t hang out. I didn’t go to bars. I didn’t any of that kind of stuff. It was really through the subsequent writing. And I think I’ve given you all my upper level memories of the time. [laughter] As there are other things that come to the fore, I’ll e-mail you. But for the last weekend I’ve been like, ‘What all did we talk about?’ trying to recall it for you.
DK: It’s great though. It’s a really interesting sort of brief window into his life at a particular time. So we appreciate
RR: Well, it was at the end and he was incredibly generous. It was a real spirit, and that’s hard to put into words. The profoundness of David is found in his work. The writing, I don’t think there’s anyone to compare to. I mean, it’s just such a voice and a clear, clear voice. And I introduce it to students to this day, so, it’s pretty awesome. But again, he until the end was just incredibly generous and interested in anyone doing anything creative.
DK: That’s so nice. Well, thank you so much. And please do feel free to, if other sort of details, and nothing too small, anything comes to mind, that would be really interesting to add to this interview.
RR: Okay. Absolutely. Cool.
GW: Yes, thank you; we really appreciate this. It’s very helpful.
RR: Absolutely. I have a, and this is another thing because I’ve moved recently, I do have a – and I’m sure all of the materials are already here, but I do have a big file of stuff on David that – I would copy stuff in the gallery all the time and it would just get added to my file. So if I find that – I can’t imagine there’s anything in there that you don’t have. A lot of it was about the lawsuit. And I was trying to remember, I don’t remember ever talking to David about the lawsuit. Certainly, Wendy and I talked about it because her brother was, I think, representing him. But there were a lot of things that I was very interested in in that and what Helms was doing, or Wildman, and that kind of stuff. But I can’t imagine there’s anything in there that’s not in the archive here already, but if I come across anything weird.
GW: You never know. Sure, if you come across that file, we’d be interested.
DK: Thank you so much.
RR: All right well, good luck. You guys are really, it’s wonderful you’re doing this.
GW: Thanks.
RR: Thank you. And I’m honored to even be here, even though I think what I gave you was pretty limited.
DK: It’s all, we’re sort of trying to
RR: Piece it together.
DK: Yes. Into a multi-faceted polyhedron.
RR: Well I can’t wait to – this will live alongside all of the paper archives and be accessible

END at 41:46